Hi all,

You may have noticed the ScoreV2 changes in the changelogs recently, with just over 7 weeks left until MWC begins we've released ScoreV2 for osu!mania in hopes that we can perfect the score system before the tournament. You will need to be on the Cutting Edge release stream to use this for now, but we will propagate it to all release streams (excluding fallback) when it is ready, just before MWC.

You'll be please to know that there are no more hidden multipliers and rounding issues have been eradicated, but that is not all. Let's go through a list of changes in this initial version:

1. Score is made up of 20% combo and 80% accuracy.
   
   1. We want to value the more accurate players (accuracy) whilst applying a small reward for consistency (combo).
2. LN starts and ends are now judged separately.
   
   1. Previously LNs considered a t timing distribution between the start press and end release. This made it unclear as to whether you'd get a MAX after an LN end as you had to take into consideration the LN start. Judging separately should feel more natural, rewarding (as you get instant ), and a bit more challenging.
3. LN ends are given a 1.5x lenience to the hit windows.
   
   1. LN starts were previously given up to 1.2x timing window lenience and LN ends were given up to 2.4x timing window lenience. This reduces the complexity of releasing an LN whilst you're focusing on pressing other notes.
4. If an LN is broken but re-pressed, the LN end will not award more than 50 points.
   
   1. Works similar to the current system depending on when you release the hold, but is lenient enough to feel rewarding even for newer players (consider that ScoreV2 will be used as the normal ranking in the future).
5. LNs do not give combo ticks any more - only one combo tick for the start and end notes.
   
   1. Feels more natural rather than displaying a useless number.
6. Mods are back! NF/EZ/HT give 0.5x score multipliers and DT/HR/HD/FI/FL give 1.06x score multipliers.

We've had some internal discussions about how LNs should work, but have not reached a definitive conclusion as there are split opinions. We are eager to hear your regarding osu!mania scoring and this new scoring system!

I'll be adding here a list of changes I will consider. Please that we are fully intending to break the game with these changes. We will apply any changes necessary to make things work:

1. Make DT adjust to 100%/110%/.../150% with score bonus increments of 0.05x (or something like that).
2. Increase the bonus of HR or decrease the tightness of the timing windows.

---- Changelog:

2016-06-16:

Cutting Edge has been updated with changes to ScoreV2 that were proposed by Shoegazer here. I want to stress that the changes are not final and we are still tweaking the system to properly represent a player's skill in a competitive setting.

Please note that HD/FI/FL mod multipliers have not yet been removed. These are slated to be removed in the next iteration of changes.

Edit: Posting this because I've explained it on reddit:

There are two components to the score.
- Accuracy
Essentially as accuracy increases we want you to gain more and more score while ing for the difficulty of maintaining a 99%+ accuracy over 90%. To do this accuracy is exponentiated so that it is not quite a linear multiplier. In the previous iteration it was raised to the 10th power, in the new iteration it is raised to a factor of the accuracy.
This has the effect of causing lower accuracies to not be so much of dead weight as they were previously, while still providing a steep curve towards 100% accuracy as seen in this graph (red = old, blue = new): https://u-gi.me/sykzM

- Combo
Combo is the harder one to talk about. We want to award holding combo, but at the same time not punish holding 4000 combo and missing once too much. To achieve this your individual hit scores are weighted by the combo you have after hitting the note. In the previous iteration this was a linear relationship, which resulted in punishing for missing after holding 4000 combo. In the new iteration it is logarithmic, with a cap at log_4(400) (meaning combo > 400 will be weighed as if your combo was 400), as shown in this graph (red = old, blue = new): https://u-gi.me/oJ6sa

Boi

Hidden mod with a multiplier is a terrible idea as most players are used to play nomod and will consider this straight unfair, while some players play ONLY with Hidden/Flashlight and they will get an advantage.

I LN as two ticks.

I disagree with HD and FL being positive multipliers. You can start finding people who rely on them only and cannot play nomod.

There should be another visual mod: HD but fixed covering height. The current game doesn't this so people just add a fixed height sprite covering the bottom of the lanes in the skin.

1.06x for visual mods (HD and FL) :V

Please, don't do that, I missed intentionally every 500 combos, It's an awfull combo system.

Score Multiplier in mania? then does that mean 1M as maximum score is no more?

I think everyone would agree on the HD/FI/FL giving a multiplier being a bad idea since people use HD/FI/FL as a playing style over normal standard playing

Hahaha, awesome.

HR/DT might as well not be ranked though - the 1.06x score-boost that you'd get is pretty much useless compared to the increase of difficulty due to the fact that rainbow accuracy counts for scoring as well. Nobody will benefit from that. :p

EDIT: Neat to see mods in MWC this year, but yeah - I will have to say that the score-boosts for HD/FI/FL are a bit unfair since we have established that certain players actually use those visual mods as a way to reduce the number of objects on the playfield (this is not as much of an issue in other games because they're not processing quite as much at one time). Then again, I'm personally not opposed to having pools like those for MWC too -- man, I'm gonna be the mania anti-christ to some of you soon. :p

nerf ht pp gain ((

Out of curiosity, is it possible to post multiple score of different mod combinations on the same beatmap?

e.g. AIAE MX nomod (counts as pp), AIAE MX DT (counts as pp) ....

and pls nerf HT pp . w .

smoogipooo wrote: 2z7152

LNs do not give combo ticks any more - only one combo tick for the start and end notes.

1. Feels more natural rather than displaying a useless number.

Mods are back! NF/EZ/HT give 0.5x score multipliers and DT/HR/HD/FI/FL give 1.06x score multipliers.

1. mmm this feels like o2jam so.. rip easy 10k combo LMAO

2. well i kinda noticed that it'll be the same pp system as std and thus the mods in mania will be worthy but i'm not ready for this yet :c (i have this feeling that there'll be a team of people who accepts this change , and the one that doesn't)

waaaahhee

everything looks great would love to see how miss counts and combos will turn out now

sharing the same sentiments as everyone does with lane cover multipliers

rip

Will current scores be changed when this is released?

coursaunt wrote: 592a1g

Will current scores be changed when this is released?

probably dam smoogi ninja'd

coursaunt wrote: 592a1g

Will current scores be changed when this is released?

No. That hasn't been discussed yet.

I think to address Halogen's concern,

HR, NC and DT should give x1.25 bonus. x1.06 is underrated considering that lane cover is also x1.06. I'll test the system later to see if a number between x1.25 and x1.06 works.

Ummmmmmm.

This doesn't seem right. Score gap between pew and snipers seems WAY too big.

very bad, this isnt how VSRG should be



Why does Musty have the SAME score than Todestrieb with more than 10% less accuracy, more than 100 misses, and less combo?

no sense...

.

He might still be on v1 scoring. Everyone has to make the change and it's probably not directly applied in the room's MP.

>mods multiplier
>HD gives bonus score
>DT and HR give bonus score
>S rank is still easy as fuck to get
>we still dont have SM rates


Please get your priorities straight.

Halogen- wrote: 6k4366

He might still be on v1 scoring. Everyone has to make the change and it's probably not directly applied in the room's MP.

I asked him and told me he made the changes (for the test)
and everyone in the room did

this is bad tbh
i like the old system more
many games used 1000000 as max score, and that goes well for me

Elementaires wrote: 42e4

Halogen- wrote: 6k4366

He might still be on v1 scoring. Everyone has to make the change and it's probably not directly applied in the room's MP.

I asked him and told me he made the changes (for the test)
and everyone in the room did

There's definitely something wonky going on there -- there's literally no conceivable way for that score to be higher, haha

HD/FI/FL gives 1.06x score multipliers... Why?????

Though lane cover mods are quite useful (since they make reading a good amount of patterns easier, *cough* my 6th Dan *cough*)


but multipliers on them? No, thanks.

smoogipooo wrote: 2z7152

[*] Mods are back! NF/EZ/HT give 0.5x score multipliers and DT/HR/HD/FI/FL give 1.06x score multipliers.

How about if for any x0.1 speedup of the music/beatmap, you get extra x0.05 multiplier? That way DT/NC are x1.25 by current standards.

If the engine allows x1.2 speedup that means i can submit scores on x1.10 multiplier and get new pp calculation if the score exceeds previous submitted scores.

wow,

bad idea ;w;

Reply to Areha11Fz:

Which of them are bad? You can list them and voice your improvements and opinions.

No. It just ruins the meaning of accuracy with the mods giving multipliers, same for the added combo rewarding. No.

Elementaires wrote: 42e4

very bad, this isnt how VSRG should be



Why does Musty have the SAME score than Todestrieb with more than 10% less accuracy, more than 100 misses, and less combo?

no sense...

Yeah what this makes no sense to me either, something's definitely wonky as was pointed out earlier.

HD should be just reworked tbh, the amount of covered space is ridiculous after it grows to maximum, if it was a fixed amount, it'd be much better in my opinion.
Not to mention the amount of the multiplier for HR/DT is just funny and not worth going for it.

Considering HD/FI is a preference, this is a terrible change. It would be like giving a score multiplier to higher rates.

And its been explained time and time again why combo based scoring is dangerously flawed. There are better ways to accomplish the same exact thing.

Honestly wouldn't be surprised if lots of players quit because of this awful change.

I don't necessarily find it bad that HD and FI are harder for some players than others. The same rule stands for all other game modes - some players find playing with HD much easier in osu!standard than without it. However if you want to be a perfectionist then you better get practicing reading differently.

So:

1. do not give visual mod multiplier
2. enable fixed HD lane cover (or as separate mod which gives no visual mod bonus)
3. stepmania-like rate system (not just 150% and 75% but also 140% 130% 120%... and respective multiplier) and pp
4. wonky score (? _ ?)

visual mod multipliers aren't fair in mania what are you doing

rezbit wrote: 4b2c2l

Considering HD/FI is a preference, this is a terrible change. It would be like giving a score multiplier to higher rates.

And its been explained time and time again why combo based scoring is dangerously flawed. There are better ways to accomplish the same exact thing.

Honestly wouldn't be surprised if lots of players quit because of this awful change.

Explain what the "better ways" are? As I mentioned in the OP we are taking , and we have lots of time to make changes.

Also guys, we're not just patching things up. We're aware that HR needs a rework, and we're brainstorming changes right now, do NOT be afraid to suggest us breaking changes - we will consider them.

http://www.strawpoll.me/10482380
Just leaving this one here o/
Also if you want to add the DT and HR modifier pls increase it since 0.06 isn't beneficial for any kind of player especially on harder map.
I personally also don't like the scoring system how it is right now, since Mania shouldn't be judged by combo.

smoogipooo wrote: 2z7152

I don't necessarily find it bad that HD and FI are harder for some players than others. The same rule stands for all other game modes - some players find playing with HD much easier in osu!standard than without it. However if you want to be a perfectionist then you better get practicing reading differently.

Should I get bonus points for reading slabs, arrows or orbs? Should I get bonus points for playing with background enabled? no. That would be stupid, because that's just a preference, like hd,fi,fl are.

E: also the "we have always done it like this" argument is just toxic, referring to your "other game modes" argument.

hey wh1teh i can play standard with different skins too, where HD etc have multipliers
so how should we break this logic? like how is mania different in of visual mods? (Don't get me wrong I'm thinking too)

smoogipooo wrote: 2z7152

rezbit wrote: 4b2c2l

Considering HD/FI is a preference, this is a terrible change. It would be like giving a score multiplier to higher rates.

And its been explained time and time again why combo based scoring is dangerously flawed. There are better ways to accomplish the same exact thing.

Honestly wouldn't be surprised if lots of players quit because of this awful change.

Explain what the "better ways" are? As I mentioned in the OP we are taking , and we have lots of time to make changes.

Also guys, we're not just patching things up. We're aware that HR needs a rework, and we're brainstorming changes right now, do NOT be afraid to suggest us breaking changes - we will consider them.

If you're gonna give a bonus to DT, you might as well implement SM rates, DT itself is already a rate so it shouldn't be that hard to implement.

S rank is not a valuable target compared to other VSRGs, it should be around 97% with at least a minimum score required in order to ACTUALLY make the MAX ratio count.


the combo scoring as you proposed it here is way too important. 99% scores with really good ratio : 700k score... really?


EDIT :

FrenzyLi wrote: 4z6m8

like how is mania different in of visual mods? (Don't get me wrong I'm thinking too)

you dont read on mania like you do in standard, HD in mania forces you to read much faster and allows you to have less objects to process on screen, this is not the case in STD, HD in STD makes you forced to heavily read the circles that appear rather than reading the approach circles to time your hits and it very often makes the circles blend together making it harder to read.

Wh1teh wrote: 44431e

Should I get bonus points for reading slabs, arrows or orbs? Should I get bonus points for playing with background enabled? no. That would be stupid, because that's just a preference, like hd,fi,fl are.

you're reaching a bit here and you know it.

as far as suggestions for HR: the timing windows are simply too tight as it stands right now to make use of the score multiplier. Either the window needs to be adjusted (less preferable) or the bonus needs to be increased (more preferable).

FrenzyLi wrote: 4z6m8

hey wh1teh i can play standard with different skins too, where HD etc have multipliers
so how should we break this logic? like how is mania different in of visual mods? (Don't get me wrong I'm thinking too)

There are few reasons why I quit std. Unbalanced mods and combo scoring, now they are coming back to haunt me. fml

Reikokaz wrote: 3u314d

http://www.strawpoll.me/10482380
Just leaving this one here o/
Also if you want to add the DT and HR modifier pls increase it since 0.06 isn't beneficial for any kind of player especially on harder map.
I personally also don't like the scoring system how it is right now, since Mania shouldn't be judged by combo.

100% accuracy score, 0% combo score?

good news for me

lpddemon wrote: 4o2317

good news for me

stupud

also, i'll be narcissistic for a moment and bring this into play: i'm arguably one of the strongest players with regards to accuracy on 4K, and i'm not fully opposed to a system that has a bit more of a combo-emphasis. I'm not advocating a situation where someone with a 92% FC beats a 99% with a miss, but I do feel like there are certain situations where combo should hold a bit more relevance and it simply doesn't in the current score system.

With then new changes, those who have good LN abilities also get rewarded, which I think is great. AiAe is a good example of where I think Score V2 should make a positive impact -- there are numerous players who have substantial combos and AiAe [SHD] is not exactly something that anyone will be renowned for their fantastic accuracy on (unless they're cheating, of course). Players who manage to break into four digits of combo on that should be rewarded a bit more than players like myself, who struggle just to get far into the three digits on a good run.

Oboro is also probably another ranked map that could see a good shake-up with the new LN mechanics.

I do think that the formula is a bit on the extreme side at the moment and I know that a few people have ideas on how to make it a -bit- better while still having that combo orientation.

The current way multipliers are balanced around are to make them work for the MWC. We are aware that giving multipliers to visual mods is a risky touch, especially due to lacking alternatives to compete against visually obstructing modiers in of map ranking. If we (ever) make this scoring to replace the current one, we will put efforts to rebalance multipliers around to make them work with other competing modifiers, of whichs difficulty increase is not based on altering the visual perception of the beatmap.

For now, it is working fine for the structure I am planning for the MWC and we will test this out and then make adjustments based on it.

Fwiw, I would ask everyone to mostly test the 20/80 ratio balance. We won't negate the meaning of combo entirely, but I am aware that basing the score solely on accuracy also is not serving the purpose as it should. I feel like right now, it pans out pretty solid, but if you are encountering situations, where the scores are not resulting the supposed rank placement, because the combo weights too much, too less, etcetc., just let us know and try to bring up a viable idea of how it actually should be, so we can adjust around that.

FrenzyLi wrote: 4z6m8

100% accuracy score, 0% combo score?

Nah not like that, just keep the old system and modify it a bit

Vygatron, you play FL. What's your opinion on FL bonus multiplier. Is it good or stupud?

FrenzyLi wrote: 4z6m8

Vygatron, you play FL. What's your opinion on FL bonus multiplier. Is it good or stupud?

It's not fair. It shouldn't give you more score just because you can't read nomod. Very stupud.

smoogipooo wrote: 2z7152

rezbit wrote: 4b2c2l

Considering HD/FI is a preference, this is a terrible change. It would be like giving a score multiplier to higher rates.

And its been explained time and time again why combo based scoring is dangerously flawed. There are better ways to accomplish the same exact thing.

Honestly wouldn't be surprised if lots of players quit because of this awful change.

Explain what the "better ways" are? As I mentioned in the OP we are taking , and we have lots of time to make changes.

Combo scoring is arbitrary as fuck. With combo scoring, its not about how many misses you get, its where you missed.

Missing at the beginning becomes way less penalizing than missing anywhere else for no good reason. Missing five notes in a row is less penalizing than missing five notes evenly spread throughout the chart for no good reason. It also does a shitty job of favoring consistency considering it undermines accuracy by a large margin.

Two guys playing a 10 minute marathon. The one who gets an FC with 70% acc has a better score than the other more consistent guy with 98% with shitmisses here and there. Does that sound logical to you?

rezbit wrote: 4b2c2l

Combo scoring is arbitrary as fuck. With combo scoring, its not about how many misses you get, its where you missed.

Missing at the beginning becomes way less penalizing than missing anywhere else for no good reason. Missing five notes in a row is less penalizing than missing five notes evenly spread throughout the chart for no good reason. It also does a shitty job of favoring consistency considering it undermines accuracy by a large margin.

Two guys playing a 10 minute marathon. The one who gets an FC with 70% acc has a better score than the other more consistent guy with 98% with shitmisses here and there. Does that sound logical to you?

You're exaggerating a bit. A 70% acc will never have more score than the guy with 98% acc. I think it's actually logical that missing five notes in a row is less penalizing than missing five notes evenly spread through the map. As maps progress anxiety builds up and you become tired, both of those are indications of how good of a player you are, or otherwise, how consistent of a player you are.

Like... OOPS I missed a note and it takes me until the next beat to get back on rhythm, but I play the map flawlessly from there on, whilst the other guy made wrong movements in several parts of the map. Seems more intuitive that the first guy should get more score than the second.

rezbit wrote: 4b2c2l

Combo scoring is arbitrary as fuck. With combo scoring, its not about how many misses you get, its where you missed.

Missing at the beginning becomes way less penalizing than missing anywhere else for no good reason. Missing five notes in a row is less penalizing than missing five notes evenly spread throughout the chart for no good reason. It also does a shitty job of favoring consistency considering it undermines accuracy by a large margin.

Two guys playing a 10 minute marathon. The one who gets an FC with 70% acc has a better score than the other more consistent guy with 98% with shitmisses here and there. Does that sound logical to you?

As smoogi said, this is heavily exagerated, that's the kind of thing that would only happen in standard.


thescenario that can happen however is, take any map, two players, one gets a shitmiss at the beginning, the other gets a shitmiss near the end what will happen? wont it be the one that missed at the beginning who will win? if that's the case, i dont think this is fair.



Also i mentionned it already but please, PLEASE, make the MAX ratio count on the final grade of the play, it has an effect in stepmania, it has an effect in LR2, i don't see why it shouldn't be the case in osu!mania