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Welcome to the osu!mania 4K World Cup 2016 Discussion Thread.
Here you can discuss everything related to the biggest worldwide osu!mania 4K tournament.

*gets ready for speedcore*

Welcome to the torture chamber, prepare for the worst.

Hype.

-Kamikaze- wrote: 713c65

Welcome to the torture chamber, prepare for the worst.

hmph <3

Uh, serious post though: change the no-mod pool's name to be uh... the regular pool or standard pool or something... it's kinda unfair for any situations where strong players who rely on a visual mod to be nullified. You can keep the idea of visual mod being forced FI/FL, but don't remove HD from HD mains too -- otherwise, you're defeating the purpose of excluding it from free mod in the first place.

EDIT: definitely requires more clarification, because of rule 7 in the Wiki

How many players do teams consist of?

mijkolsmith wrote: 2n3m3c

How many players do teams consist of?

6, afaik

Unless I'm blind, here's the link to the mappool suggestions thread.

NoMod forces everyone to play NoMod.

This rule is quite pointless, since you can more or less easily create custom visual mods via skinning, and everyone who prefers that will do that if they are forbidden to use Ingame Visual Mods.
So it just makes things unnecessarily complicated and doesn't really add anything to the pool, in my opinion.

Also, I agree with Halogen, the pool names may be a bit confusing.

I think the best solution to this will be as follows:

1. allow HD in what is currently called the "no mod" pool
2. allow HD in the free mod pool, but do not allow it to count against the total of players that are using a free-mod eligible visual mod -- this would mean that a team using HD/HD/HD would not qualify for playing in the freemod pool, but HD/HD/FL would because FL is eligible.

This way, teams who have HD mains are not affected, and you can enforce the free mod pool in a way that is fair for both no mod and hidden players.

I like.

One thing, why every mappool will have 15maps? It gives too much freedom in picking maps, especially in early stages :/

Tidek wrote: 5o6f5d

I like.

One thing, why every mappool will have 15maps? It gives too much freedom in picking maps, especially in early stages :/

But at the end when you reach the Grand Finals you have to play everything in a close situation

juankristal wrote: 4hft

Tidek wrote: 5o6f5d

I like.

One thing, why every mappool will have 15maps? It gives too much freedom in picking maps, especially in early stages :/

But at the end when you reach the Grand Finals you have to play everything in a close situation

That's not Tidek's point though, having Grand Finals played like that is perfect imo, but his point is that you have too much room to avoid risky picks in early stages

tfw no hd. why you have to hurt me like this :^(

We adjusted the mappool structure. There is no a NoMod and a FreeMod bracket, where FreeMod allows the usage of FadeIn and Flashlight. One player per team must play with one mod on a FreeMod beatmap. NoMod forces everyone to play NoMod.

where FreeMod allows the usage of FadeIn and Flashlight

So, if i understand Hidden and HardRock are not allowed? That's it?

There's no HR pool, so using it would only hurt your team because there are no bonuses. HD stuff seems really strange and I think it needs some more clarification because it seems like the current rules prevent HD players from playing in FreeMod at all and I don't think that's appropriate. I feel like the post that I made is the obvious solution to the problem, though.

#FLmainsmatter

The person who made MWC 2016 4K Wiki wrote: 114z

5. The NoMod bracket will be played with no mods activated.
6. When playing a FreeMod map, at least 1 players of each team must have one mod activated.
----1. The FreeMod bracket will have FreeMod activated. Every individual player can pick Flashlight or FadeIn.
----2. Players can only select one of the mentioned mods.
7. The tiebreaker will be played under FreeMod conditions.
----1. When playing the tiebreaker, no one needs to have a mod activated.

This is broken.
5. There may be a player on a team who cannot play without Flashlight/Fade In/Hidden
6. There also may be a team whose cannot play with the visual mods
7. Same with number 5

Sometimes, you just dont allow a specific individual to play in certain brackets

and.. the mappool submission?

Halogen- wrote: 6k4366

I think the best solution to this will be as follows:

1. allow HD in what is currently called the "no mod" pool
2. allow HD in the free mod pool, but do not allow it to count against the total of players that are using a free-mod eligible visual mod -- this would mean that a team using HD/HD/HD would not qualify for playing in the freemod pool, but HD/HD/FL would because FL is eligible.

This way, teams who have HD mains are not affected, and you can enforce the free mod pool in a way that is fair for both no mod and hidden players.

Quoting this because I got backpaged and it's a resolution that works for everyone.

AncuL wrote: 1tw5b

The person who made MWC 2016 4K Wiki wrote: 114z

5. The NoMod bracket will be played with no mods activated.
6. When playing a FreeMod map, at least 1 players of each team must have one mod activated.
----1. The FreeMod bracket will have FreeMod activated. Every individual player can pick Flashlight or FadeIn.
----2. Players can only select one of the mentioned mods.
7. The tiebreaker will be played under FreeMod conditions.
----1. When playing the tiebreaker, no one needs to have a mod activated.

This is broken.
5. There may be a player on a team who cannot play without Flashlight/Fade In/Hidden
6. There also may be a team whose cannot play with the visual mods
7. Same with number 5

Sometimes, you just dont allow a specific individual to play in certain brackets

and.. the mappool submission?

5. They adjust to nomod or get swapped out
6. Someone has to adjust to FI/FL, HD is not allowed
7. Same with number 5

Just so you know, this is not a tourney testing who can play in the most comfortable settings, freemod bracket is meant to take you out of your comfort zone unless you can adjust to the mods enough to make them your comfort zone. It's all about adaptation and I already see players adapting to the mods full time.

As for the mappool submission, I'm not sure what you mean, but Pope Gadget posted a link to mappool suggestions thread on the first page (it's also stickied in o!m subforum)

this seems like HD players are forced to "give up" using HD and play normally. So, I agree with Halogen- regarding the matter.

Seems like all you need to do to get around the problem (for a team that uses no visual mods) is have a FL main, have them put FL in their skin and then use FL on the FreeMod bracket and take the mod off for NoMod (but the effect is still there through the skin). And why FI but not HD? What about upscroll s where the effect is reversed?

quite a dumb question.
is there anyone are even playing FI ? that mod is even worse than HD imho *except if they make constant vision like FL did, then maybe people will go into that mods

projectc1 wrote: 3i3i4o

quite a dumb question.
is there anyone are even playing FI ? that mod is even worse than HD imho *except if they make constant vision like FL did, then maybe people will go into that mods

Tidek, lxlucasxl are the first ones that comes to mind

FI on upscroll does the exact same thing as on downscroll. And why FI? Because FI unlike HD forces you to cut your scroll speed to about 40% just to be able to read it properly. On HD, you're using a scroll speed relatively close to your nomod scroll so it's not that hard to learn it. However FI requires a lot more practice.
Also for the "who even plays FI" question - everyone who has their focus point on the screen (the area where you look at notes) below middle and/or people who play on relatively slow scroll speed. If you have your focus point directly in the middle, FL will be better for you, but if you look lower - FI is the way. I myself prefer FI over FL actually.

projectc1 wrote: 3i3i4o

quite a dumb question.
is there anyone are even playing FI ? that mod is even worse than HD imho *except if they make constant vision like FL did, then maybe people will go into that mods

I find FI to be way easier than FL; Kamikaze nailed it in the head about the focus points. I can't perform well with HD either for the same reason why I can't use FL. While FI/FL will affect performance substantially, FI is the far better of the two evils for me.

*triggered*

Halogen- wrote: 6k4366

I think the best solution to this will be as follows:

1. allow HD in what is currently called the "no mod" pool
2. allow HD in the free mod pool, but do not allow it to count against the total of players that are using a free-mod eligible visual mod -- this would mean that a team using HD/HD/HD would not qualify for playing in the freemod pool, but HD/HD/FL would because FL is eligible.

This way, teams who have HD mains are not affected, and you can enforce the free mod pool in a way that is fair for both no mod and hidden players.

I second this notion, because unless HD counts as eligible in the FreeMod bracket it's completely unfair for HD mains to be banned from using it in the NoMod bracket.

Halogen- wrote: 6k4366

I think the best solution to this will be as follows:

1. allow HD in what is currently called the "no mod" pool
2. allow HD in the free mod pool, but do not allow it to count against the total of players that are using a free-mod eligible visual mod -- this would mean that a team using HD/HD/HD would not qualify for playing in the freemod pool, but HD/HD/FL would because FL is eligible.

This way, teams who have HD mains are not affected, and you can enforce the free mod pool in a way that is fair for both no mod and hidden players.

^ this. Because it's seriously unfair for HD mains that HD is banned.

Halogen- wrote: 6k4366

I think the best solution to this will be as follows:

1. allow HD in what is currently called the "no mod" pool
2. allow HD in the free mod pool, but do not allow it to count against the total of players that are using a free-mod eligible visual mod -- this would mean that a team using HD/HD/HD would not qualify for playing in the freemod pool, but HD/HD/FL would because FL is eligible.

This way, teams who have HD mains are not affected, and you can enforce the free mod pool in a way that is fair for both no mod and hidden players.

Agree

It's sad. I was initially excited about visual mods, but... it gives preferential treatment to different groups no matter what you do. Why not make slight modifications to pool size and use hard rock and double time pools? You get equal levels of strategy by more accurate/lower level teams picking HR on fast/weakly accurate (or those well versed in LN thanks to score v2!) players and DT allows faster teams to try and overrun them, leaving the "no mod" pool (which should just be free mod, at this point) to depend on well-roundedness, and HR/DT don't affect player preferences at all - they tighten the timing window and increase the base tempo of songs, two things that are not controllable by players.

I dunno - I'm all for trying new things, but it's seeming more and more to be not so receptive by players, and also seeming a bit unfair/arbitrary. Players can emulate various visual mods by modifying their skins in a way to circumvent the usage of mods in the first place (an effective thing to do for those who do not play no-mod) and that only should be a red flag that it might not be a good idea to do in the first place.

Don't tell me that they are trying to use ScoreV2 for this cup so that's why they made the rule of no HD during nomod because it would give extra score. If this is the case then just don't give a score multiplier for HD. Also for people complaining about not being able to use HD because they can't play without it, why not just tweak your skin so you can have a static HD. Problem solved

It was said long time ago that hd/fi/fl wont give score multiplier in score v2

*sigh* feels bad for the "freedom of play" seekers.

Halogen- wrote: 6k4366

Halogen- wrote: 6k4366

I think the best solution to this will be as follows:

1. allow HD in what is currently called the "no mod" pool
2. allow HD in the free mod pool, but do not allow it to count against the total of players that are using a free-mod eligible visual mod -- this would mean that a team using HD/HD/HD would not qualify for playing in the freemod pool, but HD/HD/FL would because FL is eligible.

This way, teams who have HD mains are not affected, and you can enforce the free mod pool in a way that is fair for both no mod and hidden players.

Quoting this because I got backpaged and it's a resolution that works for everyone.

I'll quote this one more time in hopes that it even gets discussion. It seems like all of that complaining was worth very little, because no one seems to care. I don't mind personally since I'm not affected by it, but I'd hope that we're aiming for the most fair experience as possible.

Also, long shot, but quoting something else that was back-paged -- you guys can't expect things to change if you don't lobby for them.

Halogen- wrote: 6k4366

It's sad. I was initially excited about visual mods, but... it gives preferential treatment to different groups no matter what you do. Why not make slight modifications to pool size and use hard rock and double time pools? You get equal levels of strategy by more accurate/lower level teams picking HR on fast/weakly accurate (or those well versed in LN thanks to score v2!) players and DT allows faster teams to try and overrun them, leaving the "no mod" pool (which should just be free mod, at this point) to depend on well-roundedness, and HR/DT don't affect player preferences at all - they tighten the timing window and increase the base tempo of songs, two things that are not controllable by players.

I dunno - I'm all for trying new things, but it's seeming more and more to be not so receptive by players, and also seeming a bit unfair/arbitrary. Players can emulate various visual mods by modifying their skins in a way to circumvent the usage of mods in the first place (an effective thing to do for those who do not play no-mod) and that only should be a red flag that it might not be a good idea to do in the first place.

We are still debating. Until these debates have no concluded, we are not lobbying or talking about them and stuff stays as it is, until we made a call on them.

Loctav wrote: 131p2r

We are still debating. Until these debates have no concluded, we are not lobbying or talking about them and stuff stays as it is, until we made a call on them.

Sounds good. As long as there's some sort of actual discussion going on, then I'm fine with that. It's just been nothing but radio silence in the thread from both staff (who are advocating the change) and s (who are against it but don't want to say why/continue to try and convince people!?).

Halogen- wrote: 6k4366

I think the best solution to this will be as follows:

1. allow HD in what is currently called the "no mod" pool
2. allow HD in the free mod pool, but do not allow it to count against the total of players that are using a free-mod eligible visual mod -- this would mean that a team using HD/HD/HD would not qualify for playing in the freemod pool, but HD/HD/FL would because FL is eligible.

This way, teams who have HD mains are not affected, and you can enforce the free mod pool in a way that is fair for both no mod and hidden players.

Quoting this because I got backpaged and it's a resolution that works for everyone.

Almost every top player of their respective country is a no mod, hidden main players are not to many and the overall performance of all the players even the ET's will be lowered in the freemod bracket or no mod respectively, while this is for getting players out of their comfort zone, I still find banning hidden pointless, has an example how many hidden main players are in USA that could be chosen to participate?

Halogen- wrote: 6k4366

It's sad. I was initially excited about visual mods, but... it gives preferential treatment to different groups no matter what you do. Why not make slight modifications to pool size and use hard rock and double time pools? You get equal levels of strategy by more accurate/lower level teams picking HR on fast/weakly accurate (or those well versed in LN thanks to score v2!) players and DT allows faster teams to try and overrun them, leaving the "no mod" pool (which should just be free mod, at this point) to depend on well-roundedness, and HR/DT don't affect player preferences at all - they tighten the timing window and increase the base tempo of songs, two things that are not controllable by players.

I dunno - I'm all for trying new things, but it's seeming more and more to be not so receptive by players, and also seeming a bit unfair/arbitrary. Players can emulate various visual mods by modifying their skins in a way to circumvent the usage of mods in the first place (an effective thing to do for those who do not play no-mod) and that only should be a red flag that it might not be a good idea to do in the first place.

HR/DT pool would be really good, it would make the matches completly different and fun.

Overall this are the most solid suggestions and their fair to no mod players and specific mode ones not like the actual rules, but well thats my opinion.

FL giving a multiplier but FI not giving a multiplier doesn't make any sense.

So what does each mod do, assuming that the combo does not affect how much of the screen is covered (this can be done through skinning or whatever):
- Hidden covers a major portion of the screen (60-70%?) - from the middle to the bottom of the screen (for downscroll), but since the focus point on Hidden (top of the screen) would be so far away from the receptors and that HD will never have a chance to cover that focus point, you can afford to have the same speedmod as you would on NoMod. Most players focus on the middle/middle-upper part of the screen as well, so there isn't going to be too much of a difference involved. I don't use HD, but from what I've seen the main purpose of it is to filter out any unnecessary noise outside of their focal point - making it easier to focus on speed charts. Timing performance aside (which becomes insignificant post-Round of 16), there is little effect in performance due to the screen cover from the middle to the bottom.

- FadeIn covers the same amount of space as Hidden, but in the opposite direction - from the middle to the top of the screen (for downscroll). The thing about FadeIn however, is that since your focal point would be so close to the receptors, there is very little time to react between what you see and what you will hit. This is the opposite for Hidden - players are given a certain amount of time to process a certain pattern before they actually have to hit the pattern. In order to solve for the FadeIn problem, you will have to reduce your speedmod to the point to ensure that you have enough time to process patterns before hitting them. The speedmod reduction is drastic - the average reduction is about 50%. It might not sound like much on paper, but considering that the readability (i.e. how you easily you can process patterns due to more noticeable spaces in high speeds) of a speedmod has essentially an anti-exponential function (i.e. as you use a higher speedmod, given that you are comfortable with it, the benefits in readability will diminish as the change in speed occurs at a higher base speed) - it's a major deficit. Also worth pointing out that readability affects both accuracy and speed ability.

- Flashlight is a hybrid between the two. It covers a portion of the screen from the middle to the top, albeit noticeably less than FadeIn. Regardless, a noticeable fraction of the non-covered portion of the screen will also be covered. Due to the lower focal point (and in turn is closer to the receptors), for the same reasoning above, will require a lower speedmod. You won't require that much of a drop compared to FadeIn, but it's certainly there. You'd essentially be using a low speedmod Hidden mod. Considering that HD in itself doesn't create much negative effect outside of timing, you can deduce that the low speedmod is likely what is causing the deficit in performance.

Since:
- Players can use Hidden with the same speedmod
- Players who use Hidden generally have timing issues due to heavier reliance on aural cues rather than visual
- Flashlight covers less space from the middle to the top than FadeIn
- The closer your focal point is the lower your speedmod
- Lower speedmods create significantly worse performance - both accuracy-wise and speed-wise

You can deduce that:
- You have to use a lower speedmod on FadeIn than on Flashlight.
- Due to the much lower speedmod on FI, FadeIn players perform worse overall than on FL, except for arguably timing due to the Hidden-esque lane cover, but the lower speedmod on FI will be the bigger cause in accuracy deficits in the first place.

Therefore it wouldn't make sense for FI to not have a bonus but FL does.

There are other ways of showing that FI is of equal difficulty (if not moreso) than FL, but that's besides the point. The point is that FL is given a multiplier either for a factor that is not felt by the player (and thus not being representative of human gameplay) or FI is not given a multiplier due to fallacious reasoning (or at least, reasoning that does not resonate with a player's perspective of gameplay).

I'm assuming that the main reason why FI is disallowed is because you can cover up the screen to the point where you won't be able to see the progressive lane cover as your combo goes up. With that logic, you are saying that a stationary lane cover from middle to top is irrelevant - regardless of how much of the screen is covered (this isn't true but that's besides the point, just assume that it's true at first). Assuming that, considering that the performance of nomod players using HD is miniscule and if not better for speed charts and a slight deterioration in performance for accuracy, it will not make sense for it to give any additional bonus - especially if the purpose of the scoring system is to accurately measure the performance of a player. By allowing FL to have a 1.1x mutliplier and FI to have a 1.0x multiplier, you would be incorrectly assessing the ability of a player - because a 97% score with FL and a 97% score with FI, is comparable - the latter is arguably better, even - for reasons stated above. It would make sense for FI/FL to have the same multiplier, however.

Considering that the goal of the FreeMod pool is to ensure that players are leaving their comfort zone, letting FL have a superior multiplier to FI is counterproductive - FI has (debatably) more adverse effects and FL is also a more common mod that people use.


Side note, what Halogen- has said about Hidden is absolutely correct and a ban on HD entirely is ultimately more of a way of forcing people to jump through hoops (getting a hidden skin) for something that has little significance on players post-Round of 16.

I am mad some players are not gonna this years MWC, some people i looked forward to is not gonna end up playing this year due to bad relationships with other team , i wish i could just encourage them to play without giving a fuck honestly. But alas there are some who did bad things to get banned from playing MWC altogether so this year i'm not sure if it's gonna be enjoyable for me. Well, you have the US/BR team so i guess i can look up for that, but those teams are probably gonna be the only good matches throughout the entire Cup. in anycase, good luck to the teams this year and hope you would perform your best!

Shoegazer wrote: 174g4x

FL giving a multiplier but FI not giving a multiplier doesn't make any sense.

So what does each mod do, assuming that the combo does not affect how much of the screen is covered (this can be done through skinning or whatever):
- Hidden covers a major portion of the screen (60-70%?) - from the middle to the bottom of the screen (for downscroll), but since the focus point on Hidden (top of the screen) would be so far away from the receptors and that HD will never have a chance to cover that focus point, you can afford to have the same speedmod as you would on NoMod. Most players focus on the middle/middle-upper part of the screen as well, so there isn't going to be too much of a difference involved. I don't use HD, but from what I've seen the main purpose of it is to filter out any unnecessary noise outside of their focal point - making it easier to focus on speed charts. Timing performance aside (which becomes insignificant post-Round of 16), there is little effect in performance due to the screen cover from the middle to the bottom.

- FadeIn covers the same amount of space as Hidden, but in the opposite direction - from the middle to the top of the screen (for downscroll). The thing about FadeIn however, is that since your focal point would be so close to the receptors, there is very little time to react between what you see and what you will hit. This is the opposite for Hidden - players are given a certain amount of time to process a certain pattern before they actually have to hit the pattern. In order to solve for the FadeIn problem, you will have to reduce your speedmod to the point to ensure that you have enough time to process patterns before hitting them. The speedmod reduction is drastic - the average reduction is about 50%. It might not sound like much on paper, but considering that the readability (i.e. how you easily you can process patterns due to more noticeable spaces in high speeds) of a speedmod has essentially an anti-exponential function (i.e. as you use a higher speedmod, given that you are comfortable with it, the benefits in readability will diminish as the change in speed occurs at a higher base speed) - it's a major deficit. Also worth pointing out that readability affects both accuracy and speed ability.

- Flashlight is a hybrid between the two. It covers a portion of the screen from the middle to the top, albeit noticeably less than FadeIn. Regardless, a noticeable fraction of the non-covered portion of the screen will also be covered. Due to the lower focal point (and in turn is closer to the receptors), for the same reasoning above, will require a lower speedmod. You won't require that much of a drop compared to FadeIn, but it's certainly there. You'd essentially be using a low speedmod Hidden mod. Considering that HD in itself doesn't create much negative effect outside of timing, you can deduce that the low speedmod is likely what is causing the deficit in performance.

Since:
- Players can use Hidden with the same speedmod
- Players who use Hidden generally have timing issues due to heavier reliance on aural cues rather than visual
- Flashlight covers less space from the middle to the top than FadeIn
- The closer your focal point is the lower your speedmod
- Lower speedmods create significantly worse performance - both accuracy-wise and speed-wise

You can deduce that:
- You have to use a lower speedmod on FadeIn than on Flashlight.
- Due to the much lower speedmod on FI, FadeIn players perform worse overall than on FL, except for arguably timing due to the Hidden-esque lane cover, but the lower speedmod on FI will be the bigger cause in accuracy deficits in the first place.

Therefore it wouldn't make sense for FI to not have a bonus but FL does.

There are other ways of showing that FI is of equal difficulty (if not moreso) than FL, but that's besides the point. The point is that FL is given a multiplier either for a factor that is not felt by the player (and thus not being representative of human gameplay) or FI is not given a multiplier due to fallacious reasoning (or at least, reasoning that does not resonate with a player's perspective of gameplay).

I'm assuming that the main reason why FI is disallowed is because you can cover up the screen to the point where you won't be able to see the progressive lane cover as your combo goes up. With that logic, you are saying that a stationary lane cover from middle to top is irrelevant - regardless of how much of the screen is covered (this isn't true but that's besides the point, just assume that it's true at first). Assuming that, considering that the performance of nomod players using HD is miniscule and if not better for speed charts and a slight deterioration in performance for accuracy, it will not make sense for it to give any additional bonus - especially if the purpose of the scoring system is to accurately measure the performance of a player. By allowing FL to have a 1.1x mutliplier and FI to have a 1.0x multiplier, you would be incorrectly assessing the ability of a player - because a 97% score with FL and a 97% score with FI, is comparable - the latter is arguably better, even - for reasons stated above. It would make sense for FI/FL to have the same multiplier, however.

Considering that the goal of the FreeMod pool is to ensure that players are leaving their comfort zone, letting FL have a superior multiplier to FI is counterproductive - FI has (debatably) more adverse effects and FL is also a more common mod that people use.

thoughts on the magnitude of the 1.1x multiplier which might not be true

I don't really agree with FL giving a 1.1x multiplier either, specifically the magnitude of the multiplier. I think it would be better as 1.05x or so, my main line of argument is the fact that a team with a player who predominantly plays FL would destroy any team with a player who does not have an FL main. This is more of a concern with Group Stages however, as there is a noticeable skill cap with FL/FI mains (which can be explained but is beyond the scope of this post), and that the benefits of having an FL main would be most noticeable in Round of 16 or Round of 8. A FL main will obliterate a song in Group Stages, accumulating a 98,000-99,500 point lead - and the FL player who isn't an FL main would get about 95,000-97,000, which could potentially make or break a round considering that the differences between combined scores between two strong teams is rather miniscule. Add on to the fact that there are 4 FreeMod charts out of 15 (something that will not be changed), I feel that there's just too much emphasis on one player for a gimmick for which a player could potentially have home advantage for me - but I guess if you're trying to emphasise the importance of learning FI/FL then the more power to you.

This is under the assumption that a nomod player, given enough time with FL, will lose about 3%-5% of his score on average. This is probably not the case in practicality, but I'll just bring up the case anyway.

Side note, what Halogen- has said about Hidden is absolutely correct and a ban on HD entirely is ultimately more of a way of forcing people to jump through hoops (getting a hidden skin) for something that has little significance on players post-Round of 16.

I'm a flashlight player. As much as I see this as a easy way to win I also see it as a unfair reason to win. I disagree with the score multiplayer like you do. I believe there should be no score multiplayer for any mods in Mania.

Every FL player I know disagrees with the idea of a FL multiplier.

I clearly said that we are still debating about making rule changes. I see no point in you guys making assumptions and debates.

Has the US team chose it's full team yet?

It's better to be prepared for that side of the coin toss than to not be.

I lke the idea of "putting you out of the comfort zone by forced mod choice", but unfortunately that wont work out since some people see HD as aid while others see it as a handicap, and same applies to the other mods (banning HD therefore doesnt make sense either). Also you can recreate mods via skinning so banning them isnt very effective anyway.

Also it makes no sense to call it "FreeMod" when your choice of mods isnt free in particular. Call it "ForceMod" instead.

In my opinion in the default bracket everyone should be able to pick whatever visual mod he/she wants and in the mod bracket we can think of other stuff. How about 1 FI, 1 HD and 1 FL player per team? I think that would work out better.

Lets hear some other opinions.

Loctav wrote: 131p2r

I clearly said that we are still debating about making rule changes. I see no point in you guys making assumptions and debates.

With all due respect: we're not seeing any sort of debating/considerations from staff at all in here, and the tournament is coming really soon. There's no assumptions or debates from players - these are facts, including from those who even play on the mods affected.

s are closing in less than a week, and the tournament starts in less than three weeks. Things need to be ironed out sooner rather than later.

Halogen- wrote: 6k4366

Loctav wrote: 131p2r

I clearly said that we are still debating about making rule changes. I see no point in you guys making assumptions and debates.

With all due respect: we're not seeing any sort of debating/considerations from staff at all in here, and the tournament is coming really soon. There's no assumptions or debates from players - these are facts, including from those who even play on the mods affected.

s are closing in less than a week, and the tournament starts in less than three weeks. Things need to be ironed out sooner rather than later.

Besides, the purpose of this thread is "Discussing everything about 4K MWC" as the main post indicates. There IS a point, although Halogen has clarified the issue as a fact, discussing about the rules. The tournament is for the players afterall, so I think staff gotta to listen to the opinion of players and moreover share how staff is thinking as well, not just posting that the rules are being discussed and leave the things out. Again, the tournament is coming up soon, and as Halogen said things have to be cleared out faster.
As a mania player, I'd really like to see top players competing each other and have fun. So I think we have to fix this out somehow, so we can enjoy this tournament.

I guess the struggle they're going through is the fact that there are too few opinions in here.

I think its save to say that the majority wants all 3 visual mods to be free to pick in the default bracket, we just need to figure out whats going to happen to the mod bracket. Leaving it like it is right now is no option so we really need more activity in this thread

EDIT: I gave it a second thought and I think the 2 bracket system should be reverted to "everyone can choose what ever visual mods he desires", including HD. Forced mod choice makes no sense as long as they can be skinned.

Have to agree with LastExceed here. I don't see the point of forcing people to handicap their perfomance in order to "find out who is truly the best player". It's generally a cute idea but doesn't make sense at all to me. My suggestion is to revert to 1 bracket with free mod choice. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I dont see the point as well for example NoMod//ForcedMod ... many people are better with mods look @Bobbias and his FL drama <3 but cant do shit without it so they will playing with skinned Visual Mods (osu has no variable lane cover. BTW this sucks)
also to be honest skinning it is a peace of cake opening Paint and throw some black color on your Key images. So you can skin all types of Lane-Cover and dunno stuff u want this way like this xX
Very short Example:

Well, HR and DT is somehow challenging. Instead of forcing visual mods, it's better to put HR and/or DT as the "FreeMod".
Also there are no rules about skin modifications, so it's up to everyone to make it Auto Hidden/FadeIn/Flashlight.

When will the mappool be released? And will per-song offset be allowed?

Piggy wrote: w354j

When will the mappool be released? And will per-song offset be allowed?

Live Drawings: 31 Jul 2016 14:00 UTC+0
Yes, per-song offset is allowed

Hello!

Sorry for the delay. Travelling to Spain took some time, so please give it some understanding here.
We altered the MWC4K ruleset to reflect our planned balance changes.

1. The FreeMod bracket makes you either choose between Flashlight or HardRock
2. You can now activate Hidden or FadeIn at any beatmap. These mods do not count into the FreeMod requirement

The MWC4K has the unfortunate position of overlapping with my only 2 weeks in a year where I get my vacations. So my apologies for the delay in this matter and that it took a while to announce that. We needed to figure out first, if HardRock submits properly, which took a bit.

Hahaha, being able to pick between one or the other basically means you should just have an HR bracket! HR being 1.2x versus FL being 1.1x -- the point at which player skill converges to make up that difference is probably at the point of barely ing charts.

"FreeMod"
"makes you either choose between Flashlight or HardRock"

wat

why not both :^) just kidding, man gonna pick HR for full sight rather than FL but only 1.1x wkwkwkwk

Loctav wrote: 131p2r

Hello!

Sorry for the delay. Travelling to Spain took some time, so please give it some understanding here.
We altered the MWC4K ruleset to reflect our planned balance changes.

1. The FreeMod bracket makes you either choose between Flashlight or HardRock
2. You can now activate Hidden or FadeIn at any beatmap. These mods do not count into the FreeMod requirement

The MWC4K has the unfortunate position of overlapping with my only 2 weeks in a year where I get my vacations. So my apologies for the delay in this matter and that it took a while to announce that. We needed to figure out first, if HardRock submits properly, which took a bit.

Wtf this is even worse!
First off all the multipliers of those mods (at least HR) are extremely unbalanced. Second, this is extremely unfair when there is a FL player one team. Third (as said before) this will lead to a HR bracket bcause the multipliers arent even.

Please just return to the old single-bracket system where all visual mods are free to choose.

I do have to say I like the idea of "putting the players out of the comfort zone", but neither does this determine "whos truly the best" nor is there any way you can make it work properly atm.

It's nice that you're trying to make it different from other tournaments, but this idea is just horrible.

The gap between HR and FL allows FL to be left in the dust, haha. And yeah, as LastExceed mentioned (and I never even thought about it), if there is an FL main, it's pretty messed up for them because they're forced to break away from their native mod. I suppose this cancels the fact that they'd get a multiplier regardless of what they did, but...

Visual mods are making this all screwy, heh.

It would be great if a few players who can play FL could test how much both mods affect the score, and therefore test whether the score multipliers are justified. that HR can drain the accuracy quite harshly and lead to more misses.

Ask yourself this question: if you're not an FL main -- would you rather deal with the tightened timing windows rather than the visual obstruction?

Or a better question: Do you feel that you can score what would be 900k normally, on hard rock? If you can answer yes to this question, using FL is useless. With a multiplier of 1.2x, players who can get at least 916,668 points before the HR multiplier is added will mathematically beat out a player who is using FL, even if they get a SSS (1,000,000) score prior to the multiplier. Given the level of play we're likely to experience in MWC, a huge majority of players will almost certainly be picking HR because the risk to use it is incredibly low compared to the multiplier.

The strategy would be much more interesting if you could activate both at the same time, and if the multipliers were reduced.

Why fade in is removed from freemods since both FL and FI are forcing players to lower scroll speed (FI requires to lower your scroll by around 50% and FL around 40%) and FL is actually easier for most players because of stable vision area. That is pretty nonsense in my opinion.

Adding HR is pretty bad at the moment since it doesnt change too much at all, it doesnt put players out from their comfort zone.

Actually, I liked the most the first idea where:
- freemod bracket - one of the players must choose FI or FL (without score multipliers), rest of players can play HD or nomod
- normal bracket - players are playing nomod or with HD

Now its getting worse and worse :/

Tidek wrote: 5o6f5d

Why fade in is removed from freemods since both FL and FI are forcing players to lower scroll speed (FI requires to lower your scroll by around 50% and FL around 40%) and FL is actually easier for most players because of stable vision area. That is pretty nonsense in my opinion.
Adding HR atm is pretty bad at the moment since it doesnt change too much at all, it doesnt put players out from their comfort zone.
Actually, I liked the most the first idea where:
- freemod bracket - one of the players must choose FI or FL (without score multipliers), rest of players can play HD or nomod
- normal bracket - players are playing nomod or with HD
Now its getting worse and worse :/

I agree that FI should be treated the same/similar as FL, but thats something to discuss in the V2 thread (i already made a post there). Right now we should just leave them as a free choice instead of forcing them on the players because no matter what that won't end up fair.

Its cool that they're trying to adapt MWC to v2 but since the mod-part is completely messed up right now we should leave those out for now (again: im talking about the mods, not v2 in general)

I disagree with your idea of reverting to the first idea however. Just make all 3 mods free to choose and remove the second bracket. It's too soon for that (maybe next year when v2 is more balanced regarding mod multipliers)

Conclusion:

1. I think we can all agree that HD should be free to choose since there are many players who prefer it over NoMod
2. Since there are also some FL players I'd say we should make it free to choose too (also the multiplier is yet to be discussed)
3. Im unsure about FadeIn, I leave that up to you
4. I see no point in forcing NoMod since people who prefer a visual mod will use their skin instead so you can as just leave it at free choice
5. HR multiplier is way too high atm so just leave it out of the tournament

HR has a 1.20x score multiplier (makes window tighter)
FL has 1.10x score multiplier (obstruct vision)

Most nomod players would rather pick HR since it doesn't mess with vision and also look at the multiplier, it's x2 higher...

I would rather have a MWC without the mod score multiplier but force 1 player on freemod to play with FI or FL and a nomod bracket with HD (from the beginning what everyone is agreeing to)
even though I still think people should just skin a static HD to their skin because it's better.

So, I have tested the effect of FL and HR on a few songs. These are the things I could assess.
Note: This may only apply to players who can play FL about as well as Nomod.

1. On easy songs (where you can hold a high combo easily and at worst only miss a few times), HR gives a big advantage. As long as one can hold a high combo, it will most likely result in a better HR score than FL.

2. In cases where HR makes you hold a high combo a lot harder, FL might result in a better score.
This one may apply to songs with a higher amount of long notes. LNs on HR are a LOT harder since the release timing becomes very narrow, making it harder to not miss. This shouldn't be a huge problem for players who can play LN very well.

3. On harder songs where you miss constantly, both mods could result in a better score.
This is something that might become more interesting during the finals. A good FL player could very well beat a HR player in that difficulty range.


All in all, this could be interesting, depending on what type of patterns appear in the map pools. The changes of the LN system brought in Score V2 could result in more strategic song/player choices, especially in the later stages.
My recommendation would be to look into more LN heavy maps to include in the map pool, if there won't be any more changes.

lol

The structure has to be tested in practice somewhere - it just happens to be this MWC - I can agree that there was too little time to test everything enough, but to call a tourney dead or broken just because it has a new set of rules, is outright stupid.
If you can't play by the rules and instead just want to rant about it everywhere then I would recommend just not g up.
I can understand not liking the changes, you may have valid reasoning for that as well, but requesting a revert to old set of rules because some people dislike it is uncalled for in my opinion. How about just play along and see how it goes so we can learn from it and adjust the rules to be better for the next MWC?

-Kamikaze- wrote: 713c65

I can understand not liking the changes, you may have valid reasoning for that as well, but requesting a revert to old set of rules because some people dislike it is uncalled for in my opinion. How about just play along and see how it goes so we can learn from it and adjust the rules to be better for the next MWC?

I was actually looking for people who do like it in particular because I am interested in pro-arguments, but i honestly wasn't able to find ANYONE. The only opinion that somewhat goes into that direction is rohen04's "it could be interesting" (which you find on this thread).

The thing is that its not SOME people who don't like it, but EVERYONE. I can't even find any pro arguments, seems like this really IS a devs playground for testing. And theres even set up a 1900$ price pool for it wtf.

I've been looking forward to this forever, there's no way I'm gonna resign now.

Btw why has my previous post been removed and why wasn't i notified?

LastExceed wrote: 1q1132

-Kamikaze- wrote: 713c65

I can understand not liking the changes, you may have valid reasoning for that as well, but requesting a revert to old set of rules because some people dislike it is uncalled for in my opinion. How about just play along and see how it goes so we can learn from it and adjust the rules to be better for the next MWC?

I was actually looking for people who do like it in particular because I am interested in pro-arguments, but i honestly wasn't able to find ANYONE. The only opinion that somewhat goes into that direction is rohen04's it could be interesting (which you find on this thread).

The thing is that its not SOME people who don't like it, but EVERYONE. I can't even find any pro arguments, seems like this really IS a devs playground for testing. And theres even set up a 1900$ price pool for it wtf.

I've been looking forward to this forever, there's no way I'm gonna resign now.

Btw why has my post been removed and why wasn't i notified?

Maybe !faq douche? I dont really know.

Leaving that aside we are at a point where changing rules WONT happen (or at least not likely). There is about 2 weeks until MWC 4K starts and making more changes will affect players and they wont have the time to get used to it.

I will use myself as an example, I am considering going FL+HR if it is allowed and I am still not sure if it is worth training because the rules are yet not as clear. And if they end up changing more stuff I will likely wont have enought time to get used to it (I already spent some time training FL while I shouldnt because HR is more worth so far at least).

Consider making some constructive for the MWC 7K and the next 4K cup as well. Just try to enjoy this one and if you feel the rules dont suit you, just dont . Noone will complain about it!

Then at least rename this to "scoreV2 testing rournament" because this has nothing to do with "finding out whos truly the best".
You're bringing up a score system that raises the value of combo and then force the usage of HR on maps that are already all about acc.

I really have to hold back from plain insulting everyone here right now, simply because of the lack of arguments

Raw skill will always edge out in the end. And there is nothing wrong with score v2 except the multipliers which might need some more adjusting (going to test some things out and make a post later today).
And if you want to go into insulting because there are actually people who disagree with you, then I think I should just stop posting. Not worth it.

That's why I'm not doing it. I don't say scoreV2 is bad overall, I actually like it. It's just (as you said yourself) that the mod multipliers are completely ridiculous so I just don't see the point in involving them into a World championship.

If you want me to stop posting, then provide a single solid argument, because

1. "it's too late now" is just the result of not giving an argument for a long enough time
2. "we need to test v2 somewhere" has nothing to do with an official tournament.
3. "raw skill will edge out in the end" is plain wrong (/u/lEdelWeiss and me are the perfect example: He has excellent accuracy which is why have no chance on easy maps against him, while I usually beat him on hard maps. Now who's the better one?)

Still wanna know why that post was deleted.

Reply to LastExceed:

"Raw skill will edge out in the end is plain wrong" is plain wrong, because neither you nor the person you reference is really at the end. You forgot to take the limits. (Jakads: hope you pardon my savage, but) even jakads and j<beep> is not in the end.

FrenzyLi wrote: 4z6m8

Reply to LastExceed:

"Raw skill will edge out in the end is plain wrong" is plain wrong, because neither you nor the person you reference is really at the end. You forgot to take the limits. (Jakads hope you pardon my savage, but) even jakads and j<beep> is not in the end.

Ok forget that example i made. Though i have trouble understanding yours...

Reply to LastExceed:

From my point of view, the single argument against your "rage posts" (posts containing rage) at the current time could be:

1. Just don't rage due to the fact that this is a dev test ground with prizes.

There is no argument against you posting ordinary non-rage posts at the current time. I think you're still welcomed in this discussion as long as you do not express rage; for example, I like to read your post in the scorev2 thread.

Also, respect privacy rights of other people. I would exercise caution when I post chat logs, for example.

LastExceed wrote: 1q1132

If you want me to stop posting, then provide a single solid argument, because

1. "it's too late now" is just the result of not giving an argument for a long enough time Is a result of not having enough time to properly test everything, arguments were given even before the thread was made iirc
2. "we need to test v2 somewhere" has nothing to do with an official tournament. If you make a new weapon, testing it on a shooting range will not give you enough data about it, you need to test it in actual combat (even if improvised). That's exactly the case here, the format is being tested in practice to see how well it does and to take lessons from it so it can be refined and polished for the next one.
3. "raw skill will edge out in the end" is plain wrong (/u/lEdelWeiss and me are the perfect example: He has excellent accuracy which is why have no chance on easy maps against him, while I usually beat him on hard maps. Now who's the better one?) EdelWeiss has a raw skill advantage on easier stages and you have on later stages, in a tournament setting that makes you equal assuming that the diffrences between you are similar. Teams consist of 6 players, if you have players who can do good and edge out opposition on specific stages, then they are still going to win even with those new rules. As stated before (somewhere): the world champions should be able to play absolutely everything by themselves or as a team.

Sorry if my arguments are not good enough btw, I have trouble forming them at this hour (also my mind is more on the mappicking and other various stuff atm)

FrenzyLi wrote: 4z6m8

Reply to LastExceed:

From my point of view, the single argument against your "rage posts" (posts containing rage) at the current time could be:

1. Just don't rage due to the fact that this is a dev test ground with prizes.

There is no argument against you posting ordinary non-rage posts at the current time. I think you're still welcomed in this discussion as long as you do not express rage; for example, I like to read your post in the scorev2 thread.

Thank you. I'm gonna go for now and try to calm down.

take your time -Kamikaze-.

FrenzyLi wrote: 4z6m8

Also, respect privacy rights of other people. I would exercise caution when I post chat logs, for example.

Oh so that's why. Yeah forgot about that.

As Kamikaze said we will do some testings tomorrow to see what can we do. I still think changing stuff now is a nope for the low amount of time that we do have but worth the shot.

How about if you also try to give some data and input related to that? Like people already said, your post was just some images telling how bad this is without real arguments and if I have to guess thats why it was deleted.

We will see what do we find tomorrow

Somewhat tangential, but also somewhat related... is there going to be anyway to play/practice on Score v2 outside of multiplayer before the tournament? I find this to be a bit of a hurdle for getting accustomed to the new changes, and I don't particularly enjoy having to play with others when I want to practice on my own. I can't control my targeted sessions that way. =/

Halogen- wrote: 6k4366

Somewhat tangential, but also somewhat related... is there going to be anyway to play/practice on Score v2 outside of multiplayer before the tournament? I find this to be a bit of a hurdle for getting accustomed to the new changes, and I don't particularly enjoy having to play with others when I want to practice on my own. I can't control my targeted sessions that way. =/

Not only that, you have to be a er as well.
It should be possible to start a MP match by yourself, and Score V2 should be included in the stable release. Other than that, it is very hard to prepare well for the matches.

rohen04 wrote: 1y3u3q

Not only that, you have to be a er as well

Nope, scoreV2 is also available on the beta stream which is free for everyone.

LastExceed wrote: 1q1132

rohen04 wrote: 1y3u3q

Not only that, you have to be a er as well

Nope, scoreV2 is also available on the beta stream which is free for everyone.

Just tested it, didn't work (I might've messed up something tho, idk, needs confirmation)

I didn't it myself, it's just what loctav said in the official scoreV2 thread t/375428

That's for std tho, mania's v2 might not be in beta yet

oh ok

Mfw my country has only one kind of relevant player in mania

juankristal wrote: 4hft

As Kamikaze said we will do some testings tomorrow to see what can we do. I still think changing stuff now is a nope for the low amount of time that we do have but worth the shot.

How about if you also try to give some data and input related to that? Like people already said, your post was just some images telling how bad this is without real arguments and if I have to guess thats why it was deleted.

We will see what do we find tomorrow

ok first of all I wanna apologize for my rude behaviour, I was upset and acted carelessly.
Second, I think I mentioned enough con-arguments, but I can list the main ones again:
- since some people see visual mods as handicap while others find them helpful it would strongly depend on the type of player a country is represented by instead of their actual skill
- banning mods in the default bracket makes no sense other than upsetting players who prefer them since they can be skinned anyway so you can just leave them in
- mod multipliers are very unbalanced atm and overall yet to be discussed
- it makes no sense to give a choice between 2 mods that have different multipliers
- the absolute majority of players doesn't like this system overall (its your choice whether you make this tournament for the community or for development purposes)

I'd rather say it's your turn to give some pro-arguments. the only one I recall atm is "we need to test scoreV2 somehow", which brings us back to con-argument #5.

Also, what about the testing results you mentioned?

EDIT: btw am I allowed to pick HD/FI ADDITIONALLY in the mod bracket when I decide to pick HR?

LastExceed wrote: 1q1132

ok first of all I wanna apologize for my rude behaviour, I was upset and acted carelessly.
Second, I think I mentioned enough con-arguments, but I can list the main ones again:
- since some people see visual mods as handicap while others find them helpful it would strongly depend on the type of player a country is represented by instead of their actual skill
- banning mods in the default bracket makes no sense other than upsetting players who prefer them since they can be skinned anyway so you can just leave them in
- mod multipliers are very unbalanced atm and overall yet to be discussed
- it makes no sense to give a choice between 2 mods that have different multipliers
- the absolute majority of players doesn't like this system overall (its your choice whether you make this tournament for the community or for development purposes)

I'd rather say it's your turn to give some pro-arguments. the only one I recall atm is "we need to test scoreV2 somehow", which brings us back to con-argument #5.

Also, what about the testing results you mentioned?

EDIT: btw am I allowed to pick HD/FI ADDITIONALLY in the mod bracket when I decide to pick HR?

Okay so:
#1 - That is fine in my opinion because 1) that's still a part of tactics around the tournament to either get a player to learn the mod or pick one who already can do the mod 2) people who find those mods to be helpful more often than not will struggle on nomod so you have a drawback either way

#2 - Those mods are banned (or moved to nomod rather) exactly because they can be skinned away and the effects of them can be neglected or neutralized by a decent amount. While I personally would leave FI in, that's staff's decision and I understand it

#3 - They are not yet to be discussed, they have been discussed and after I've tested some things (p/5317537 and presented it to smoogi he said the multipliers will be adjusted

#4 - That's arguable, while that is a valid point, I personally think that the harshness of the timing windows on OD10 + HR (+/- 24,5ms for 300, +/- 11,5ms for a max) warrants a slightly bigger multiplier to reward top tier accuracy more

#5 - I don't find that argument, or at least the back half of it a good excuse to just abandon all changes. People are afraid of changes, especially when you're changing something that has roots VERY deep in the community. I also can bet that half of the players hating on the changes didn't test it and just saw screens of the first version with 500k S score and other type of broken things alongside, while they may not be aware of all the changes and adjustments that have been done to v2 since then

And yes, you can use HD/FI alongside HR (since HD/FI and FL cancel out eachother) in freemod, they just count the same as nomod.

-Kamikaze- wrote: 713c65

LastExceed wrote: 1q1132

ok first of all I wanna apologize for my rude behaviour, I was upset and acted carelessly.
Second, I think I mentioned enough con-arguments, but I can list the main ones again:
- since some people see visual mods as handicap while others find them helpful it would strongly depend on the type of player a country is represented by instead of their actual skill
- banning mods in the default bracket makes no sense other than upsetting players who prefer them since they can be skinned anyway so you can just leave them in
- mod multipliers are very unbalanced atm and overall yet to be discussed
- it makes no sense to give a choice between 2 mods that have different multipliers
- the absolute majority of players doesn't like this system overall (its your choice whether you make this tournament for the community or for development purposes)

I'd rather say it's your turn to give some pro-arguments. the only one I recall atm is "we need to test scoreV2 somehow", which brings us back to con-argument #5.

Also, what about the testing results you mentioned?

EDIT: btw am I allowed to pick HD/FI ADDITIONALLY in the mod bracket when I decide to pick HR?

Okay so:
#1 - That is fine in my opinion because 1) that's still a part of tactics around the tournament to either get a player to learn the mod or pick one who already can do the mod 2) people who find those mods to be helpful more often than not will struggle on nomod so you have a drawback either way

#2 - Those mods are banned (or moved to nomod rather) exactly because they can be skinned away and the effects of them can be neglected or neutralized by a decent amount. While I personally would leave FI in, that's staff's decision and I understand it

#3 - They are not yet to be discussed, they have been discussed and after I've tested some things (p/5317537 and presented it to smoogi he said the multipliers will be adjusted

#4 - That's arguable, while that is a valid point, I personally think that the harshness of the timing windows on OD10 + HR (+/- 24,5ms for 300, +/- 11,5ms for a max) warrants a slightly bigger multiplier to reward top tier accuracy more

#5 - I don't find that argument, or at least the back half of it a good excuse to just abandon all changes. People are afraid of changes, especially when you're changing something that has roots VERY deep in the community. I also can bet that half of the players hating on the changes didn't test it and just saw screens of the first version with 500k S score and other type of broken things alongside, while they may not be aware of all the changes and adjustments that have been done to v2 since then

And yes, you can use HD/FI alongside HR (since HD/FI and FL cancel out eachother) in freemod, they just count the same as nomod.

Aaah this is the kind of reply i've been looking for all the time, thank you so much
I have trouble understanding #2 though, how can visual mods be neglected via skin and why is that a reason to bann them? (since they dont give any score advantage)?

You can completely nullify the effect of cover increasing wiith combo and tbh you don't even need a skin for it, you can use your shirt, a piece of paper or whatever, and due to mods not being tied to hitposition of the skin, you can lower hitposition to the very bottom of your screen for FI and gain a lot more room to read.

-Kamikaze- wrote: 713c65

You can completely nullify the effect of cover increasing wiith combo and tbh you don't even need a skin for it, you can use your shirt, a piece of paper or whatever, and due to mods not being tied to hitposition of the skin, you can lower hitposition to the very bottom of your screen for FI and gain a lot more room to read.

I still dont understand how that would eliminate the visual handucap because your screen would still be covered. Adding a skinned cover would even increase the handicap since that way you have maximum shadow ALL THE TIME. I do understand the judgement line thing you mentioned for FI though.
But even if it was possible to completely remove the shadow and regain full vision, why is that a reason to bann the mod? Theres no advantage to it

LastExceed wrote: 1q1132

-Kamikaze- wrote: 713c65

You can completely nullify the effect of cover increasing wiith combo and tbh you don't even need a skin for it, you can use your shirt, a piece of paper or whatever, and due to mods not being tied to hitposition of the skin, you can lower hitposition to the very bottom of your screen for FI and gain a lot more room to read.

I still dont understand how that would eliminate the visual handucap because your screen would still be covered. Adding a skinned cover would even increase the handicap since that way you have maximum shadow ALL THE TIME. I do understand the judgement line thing you mentioned for FI though.
But even if it was possible to completely remove the shadow and regain full vision, why is that a reason to bann the mod? Theres no advantage to it

The shadow distance is not the largest inhibitor for everyone - it's the shadow changing position that turns out to be an issue.

Halogen- wrote: 6k4366

The shadow distance is not the largest inhibitor for everyone - it's the shadow changing position that turns out to be an issue.

Oh really? Didn't know that o.O
But still, I don't see why this is a reason to bann the mod, there's still no advangage to it.

-Kamikaze- wrote: 713c65

You can completely nullify the effect of cover increasing wiith combo and tbh you don't even need a skin for it, you can use your shirt, a piece of paper or whatever, and due to mods not being tied to hitposition of the skin, you can lower hitposition to the very bottom of your screen for FI and gain a lot more room to read.

Thats why FL is easier for most people because of stable vision area so you dont need any lanecovers.

I dont know whether staff realize that FI doesnt help in reading for 99,9% people even with lanecovers about staff is scared (heh, make FL vision area combo dependent and almost everyone will make lane covers for it) and make FL as a pick in freemod bracket (with score multiplier) that is significantly easier for most people than FI (we have also FL mains) is totally absurd.

Yes, I feel better with FI than with FL because my reading is focused on top of the screen (upscroll) so FL is unplayable for me and putting FI free to pick in nomod bracket is like saying "fu*k you" to those people because they will do better without mods and automatically put them on worse position in freemod bracket.

Atm its totally favourzing players who are more capable with FL, unfortunately.

Tidek wrote: 5o6f5d

-Kamikaze- wrote: 713c65

You can completely nullify the effect of cover increasing wiith combo and tbh you don't even need a skin for it, you can use your shirt, a piece of paper or whatever, and due to mods not being tied to hitposition of the skin, you can lower hitposition to the very bottom of your screen for FI and gain a lot more room to read.

Thats why FL is easier for most people because of stable vision area so you dont need any lanecovers.

I dont know whether staff realize that FI doesnt help in reading for 99,9% people even with lanecovers about staff is scared (heh, make FL vision area combo dependent and almost everyone will make lane covers for it) and make FL as a pick in freemod bracket (with score multiplier) that is significantly easier for most people than FI (we have also FL mains) is totally absurd.

Yes, I feel better with FI than with FL because my reading is focused on top of the screen (upscroll) so FL is unplayable for me and putting FI free to pick in nomod bracket is like saying "fu*k you" to those people because they will do better without mods and automatically put them on worse position in freemod bracket.

Atm its totally favourzing players who are more capable with FL, unfortunately.

Yeah, but as long FL+HR is not playable you can always pick HR and win anyways. Yeah, it hits your accuracy but idk.

I just mean that vision mods are not balanced, people who are not able to read FL but can read other vision mods (that is FI) are automatically put in lose position.

Allowing only 1 vision mod because the rest is "broken" doesnt make sense, its fawourizig people who are able to play FL. Allow all vision mods in freemod (except HD) or disallow all of them. We want balanced tournament or not?

I'm gonna restate my request: Can you please allow the usage of HD/FI in both brackets or name a reason why you won't do it?

Edit: nvm i'm stupid

I'm pretty sure what Loctav said means you can use them in both, the only difference is that HD/FI do not satisfy the requirement of mods used in free mod. That means that you could have a team doing no mod, no mod, HR and satisfy the condition of it because of the HR player, but you can't have a team doing no mod, no mod, HD because HD is not considered eligible for qualifying for FM. One of the players would need to add either HR/FL (obviously will be HR because HD + FL = nope).